Superhero movies are a polarizing issue in the modern day, falling into the same camp as pro-life/pro-choice and whether or not we should legalize certain drugs. Because of this, the Cardinal and Cream is happy to host a debate between two of our writers, Naomi Mengel, who is writing for superhero movies, and J. Clark Hubbard, who is writing on the other side.
1. What was the first superhero movie you watched, and what did you think about it?
Naomi: The first superhero movie I ever watched was Captain America: The Winter Soldier. It was the summer after my sophomore year of high school (kind of a late start, I know), but that evening with my classmates in my friend’s basement sparked my love of superhero movies (as well as my confusion on how people actually enjoy drinking La Croix). I don’t know if it was the intense fight scenes, the emotional context, Chris Evans’ embodiment of Captain America, or simply the fact that this was a well-paced, clever and absorbing movie, but from the opening scene to the end credits, I was hooked.
Clark: The 1978 Superman, starring Christopher Reeves. If you don’t know that one, it’s the one that has full frontal male child nudity in the first twenty minutes and also involves some witchcraft on Superman’s part, as he manages to rewind time just by flying backwards around the earth. It was a good movie, and because it was released before the PG-13 rating came out, I was able to watch a movie that would have probably been otherwise off-limits to eight-year-old Clark. I really liked that movie, especially growing up. The villains were fun, Christopher Reeves just looked the way I imagined he would on the screen and the whole film opens up with an apocalypse. What’s not to love about that? I have a feeling that this nostalgic view of the film might be shattered if I were to watch the movie now, but at the same time, that nostalgia might hold up for me. After all, the only reason I watched that film (and the increasingly bizarre sequels) was because my dad had loved the film as a kid.
2. What are your thoughts on where superhero movies are now?
Naomi: At this point, superhero movies are a huge part of culture. Almost everyone has some level of literacy in the characters and films. One thing that I particularly appreciate about the way superhero movies are being approached is that prior knowledge of the comics from which they originated is not necessary. The films are accessible to the casual fan as well as the diehard reader of comics. The growing number and variety of storylines and characters that are being adapted for the screen means that there is something for just about any movie-goer.
Clark: I think we are in an over-saturated market, one that resembles the horrible spy movies of the early 2000’s, the anti-Russian thrillers of the eighties and the westerns that our grandparents flocked to the theater to see. When American culture likes things, it really likes them, and wants to gorge itself on all things related to that. It’s a sort of gluttony, one that eventually dissipates to make room for the next orgiastic smorgasbord to overtake Hollywood. I really like some of the superhero movies of this century, but have been largely disappointed with the Marvel and DC money-making universes (and apparently M. Night Shyamalan’s too?) and wish for more one-off superhero movies, or at least more that aren’t connected to either of these two franchises.
3. Marvel or DC?
Naomi: Marvel all the way. I think DC did a credible job on Wonder Woman and Aquaman, but Marvel’s take on the characters of superheroes themselves is more inviting and feels fresher. The structure of the Marvel Cinematic Universe lends itself well to developing unique, well-rounded characters and exploring their relationships in a way that doesn’t feel forced, as the team-up in Justice League did. Additionally, the films in the MCU are more visually diverse and tend not to take themselves too seriously for their own good.
Clark: Is the Bourne series an option? Matt Damon can get it. But if I have to choose between either of these, I’m sort of stuck between a rock and a hard place. I like the DC characters a lot more. They seem more realistic, gritty and capable of teaching real-world lessons. At the same time, a lot of DC’s movies are hot garbage at best. I don’t like Marvel movies for the most part. They seem overdone, formulaic and cheesy. I’m pretty sure I just dislike many elements of the capitalistic, money-making environment which encourages Disney to pump the market full of these movies. Can I pretend that Nolan’s Dark Knight trilogy is in the DC universe?
4. Was there a turning point for you on what you thought about these films?
Naomi: Sitting in the theater during the end credits for Black Panther, I really started to think for the first time about what makes a good superhero movie and how that fits into the larger world of cinema. Just like any other movie, superhero movies must tell a story that is engaging, fresh and connects with the viewer in its design and cinematography. Black Panther is a great example of how Marvel has been able to bring comic book characters to life in enjoyable and thought-provoking ways with unique aesthetics and relevant messages. Previously, I had enjoyed superhero movies without really thinking about why I liked them. This was the first time that I was struck by the idea that some of these movies can be considered good for their own sake, not only within the category of superhero movies.
Clark: I was sitting in the back of an SUV, watching “The Avengers” with a bunch of my fellow scout friends. I had seen a couple Iron Man films prior to this, and some others in the universe, but probably not all of them. I didn’t hate it, I just thought it was overly predictable, formula-based and a tad boring, especially if I wasn’t already invested in all of the characters from watching previous films in the franchise. That is one of my big critiques of the modern superhero movement: you can’t just start watching a Marvel or DC movie, you have to invest. If you were to watch every film, one-off, tv episode, etc., it would take––drumroll please––12 days, 10 hours, and 38 minutes as of March 1, 2019. This is according to Reddit user Aaronp613, who compiled everything here. This is crazy. Most movies should be accessible, viewable by most people.
5. Can you ever see yourself changing your mind about superhero movies?
Naomi: As long as studios continue to aim for superhero movies that are good as movies and not
just merchandise marketing or gratuitous punch-fests, I don’t think I will have cause to change my mind in the near future. While they certainly have their flaws, many superheroes are on some level larger-than-life manifestations of the people we wish we could be, and to me, a good superhero movie embraces that by dealing with moral dilemmas and showing us that the good will win in the end, even if that victory comes at great cost. I think this is a realization our culture needs, especially in an age when the anti-hero is increasingly celebrated on the same level as the “true hero.” Side note: I’m not considering Deadpool in this particular dichotomy between anti-hero and superhero because I haven’t seen those movies; based on what I know of them, I think that Marvel was wise not to include Deadpool in the MCU and to focus on characters more immediately recognizable as heroes through their actions and general moral codes. “What is a hero?” is the big question that needs to be asked and that all superhero movies examine. As long as it is approached and explored within these movies in a thoughtful
way, I will continue to enjoy them.
Clark: Not at this trajectory. My main critiques are outlined in the above paragraphs, and that’s a whole lot to change. The movies would need to stop being so formulaic aka stop making as much money, and they would have to grow more accessible aka also stop making so much money. It’s a vicious cycle, and I think that as long as the movies keep making money and people continue to frequent the theater, then big companies will continue to release their films.
6. What is the future of superhero movies?
Naomi: For now, the trend in general seems to be toward TV shows rather than movies, so I could see superhero action heading to the small screen as much as to the big. Although Disney cancelled some of the Marvel shows on Netflix, it has also announced plans to produce new superhero content for its own streaming service, which is projected to launch relatively soon. DC, on the other hand, still has a few shows up and running, such as The Flash, which unexpectedly became one of my favorite shows a year or so ago. I do think we will continue to see more big-screen action, as Marvel and DC have both announced plans for more blockbusters featuring both old fan favorites and new characters. I am also hopeful that the success of the beautifully animated Spider-Man: Into the Spider-Verse will lead studios to experiment with even bolder new ways of creating superhero movies that can compete with the best of cinema.
Clark: I see two potential futures here. The first is bad. Very bad. In this future, the studios continue to make movies until people get so sick of them that the genre––which has so much potential––will be ruined for a long time. This is not ideal. Westerns are only just now making a comeback, and that’s sad. The other possible future––the one that I really want––is one where the movies slow down, more independent films come out and the studios try and do different things, experimenting more. Imagine a superhero film directed by the Coens, Kogonada or Paul Thomas Anderson. So much is yet to be done here, and I only hope the genre is allowed to bloom and grow.
7. Personal favorite or least favorite?
Naomi: As far as my least favorite, I can’t say I really have one. Justice League was certainly a disappointment, but Wonder Woman and Aquaman redeemed two of the characters, albeit after the fact. In the MCU, Thor and Iron Man 3 are probably at the bottom. My favorite superhero movie is still the first one I ever watched, Captain America: The Winter Soldier. It doesn’t require much prior knowledge of the character or the larger Marvel Cinematic Universe, and it balances character development, plot twists and of course epic fight scenes. Other favorites would have to include Thor: Ragnarok for its neon-and-synth no-holds-barred acceptance of its comic book roots combined with heartfelt emotional moments and tongue-in-cheek humor, as well as Black Panther for the sheer gorgeousness of its aesthetic and powerful cultural messages.
Clark: Oh lord. I guess Spiderman: Homecoming was a pretty fun film, and I didn’t feel entirely lost while watching it. I really did not enjoy Doctor Strange, Jessica Jones or Archer. If I’m including TV shows, the first season of Daredevil was absolutely incredible. It was depressing to hear that the one Marvel show I liked was cancelled, but I guess it wasn’t making enough money. I fully realize I sound like a mixture between an old man screaming “get off my lawn” and a stereotypical liberal arts college student in a lot of this article, but sometimes that’s just how you feel.
